MSNBC First Presidential Debate Preview : MSNBCW : June 27, 2024 4:00pm-6:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

walter mondale went up to the j&j dinner at delaware to speak. he is an empathic, intelligent, caring human being, and the more of that we can see tonight, the better. i hope we get the chance to do so. and a lot of that is going to be dependent on the moderators. >> i tell you, you got 20 seconds until i go to rachel. >> 20 seconds. the question is, will they do fact checks. i think part of the job of a moderator is -- not every fact, but fact checks over big things. that's what followups are for. i am sure they have had this discussion in moderator school. we will see what they do. i hope they do that. >> bob barnett, debate guru, thanks for joining us. our special coverage of tonight's debate you can watch on msnbc continues right now with rachel maddow's special coverage. ♪♪ >> good eng. >> good evening. >> and good evening.

>> the candidates need no introduction. >> we are at a defining moments. >> 64 years of televised debates, there has never been one like this. >> why don't f won't you answer that question? >> would you shut up, man? >> the incumbent president defending his record. >> are you with me? >> a twice-impeached past president with a criminal record. >> guilty. count 18. guilty, count 19. >> guilty on all 34 felony counts. >> with pressing issues facing the american people, reproductive rights, the economy, the border, and the preservation of democracy itself -- >> you will determine the outcome of this election. vote, vote, vote. >> tonight full team coverage with rachel maddow, nicolle wall he is, joy reid, chris hayes, lawrence o'donnell, ari melber, stephanie ruhle, jen psaki, alex

wallingner with california governor german, michigan governor gretchen whitmer and georgia senator raphael warnock. msnbc's special coverage of the first presidential debate begins now. >> it's happening. it's finally here. good evening. welcome to our special live coverage of the first presidential debate of 2024. president joe biden and former president donald trump going head-to-head in atlanta tonight, their first face-to-face meeting of any kind since the fall of 2020. now, luckily, it's not like any big news has happened since the fall of 2020, so presumably they will just pick up where they left off. we know you have every ongs of where to twach this tonight. we are happy, honored you are going to watch it us with. we will have every second of this debate from the opening

bell to whatever is going to be left of any of us by the end of it. i'm rachel maddow here at msnbc headquarters in new york. joined by my beloved well rested, well hydrated colleagues, joy reid and nicolle wallace and jen psaki and chris hayes. we have all been really, really looking forward to this night with the phrase looking forward very loosely defined. literally tens of millions of americans are expected to watch tonight's debate, literally millions of them watching through their hands like this. there really has never been one quite like in american history. for the first time a sitting president and an ex-president will debate each other on live tv. that has never happened before. for the first time this first presidential debate is happening months earlier than it ever has happened before. it's happening now in june instead of in september or october, which has been the time -- the timing for every other presidential televised debate.

and of course for the first time one of the two presidential candidates at this debate is a convicted felon, found guilty recently on 34 felony counts. he will be facing the possibility of being sentenced to prison time just two weeks from today. exactly two weeks after the debate, the first presidential debate of the election cycle. absolutely bananas. to be totally candid, the reasons this debate tonight is so highly anticipated, the reasons tonight's debate may have the highest television audience of any debate ever in u.s. history, those reasons are themselves unique. each of these men is the oldest candidate ever nominated by their political party. donald trump was the oldest incoming president in u.s. history until joe biden broke that record. now both of them are running again, four years after they ran the first time. each of them both show signs of aging. and each spends considerable

time needling the other one about seeming old and out of it. it has been a campaign topic and a campaign tactic used by each side. no one quite knows what it will mean on the debate stage tonight. also, in ways both related and unrelated to their age, just because of who they are and how they talk, there are worries on both sides about the unpredictability of each of these candidates. they are each unpredictable even in the best of circ*mstances. that on the debate stage would seem indicate a higher than usual prospect of a catastrophic gaffe or outrage by one or both of them. also, neither has debated in years. yes, they debated each other before in the previous election cycle, but the fall of 2020 was a very long time ago and a lot has happened since then and in this election cycle neither one of these candidates participated in primary debates at all. which is not unusual for president biden because he is

the incumbent president and there was no serious challenge to him within his own party. but it was very unusual for trump, who is not an incumbent president and who ran in a very contested gop primary in which there were multiple debates for the other candidates, which he nevertheless decided to skip. and finally, perhaps the main reason this debate tonight is so highly anticipated, anticipating such a large audience, is because the stakes of this election just feel cataclysmically high. just to take two examples, this is the first presidential election in the wake of the republicans violent effort to stop the transition of power and keep their candidate in power by force and fraud after he lost the last election. they have nominated that same candidate again and the expectation for a recurrence of those tactics to contest or otherwise defy election results again this year is basically a 100% expectation.

it is also the first election after the conservative super majority that trump created op supreme court with his three supreme court appointments, it is the first election since that court overturned roe v. wade and set off the cascade of increasingly draconian abortion bans across republican-controlled states with a national abortion ban potentially on deck and republican attacks on both fertility treatment and birth control revving up in multiple states. now, as for how tonight's debate will work, for the first time in more than 30 years, this presidential debate tonight is not run by the non-partisan independent commission on presidential debates. instead, it's a cable tv network running it, cnn. the debate takes place at cnn's studios in atlanta. it will be moderated by jake sullivan and dana bash. as i want to emphasize, you can watch every second of the debate

here on msnbc with us tonight. unlike most televised presidential debates over the last few decades, there will be no audience for tonight's debate in the room. so that means you will hear and see no crowd reaction. that means that there will be no playing to the crowd for either candidate. the moderators will also have the ability to mute candidates microphones when the other has his turn to speak. there will be no opening statements. there will be closing statements. the order of the closing statements was decided by a coin toss. there was a coin toss that president biden won. he was then given the choice of choosing either the order of the closing statements or which podium he would like to stand at on the stage. president biden decided to choose his podium. he will stand at the podium on the right side of our tv screens tonight. that meant that former president trump got to choose whether he wanted to go first or second it in the closing statements.

he chose to go second. as i said, this is a really different debate than we have had before. so i'll just mention i know i went through the rules kind of quickly, we will run through those rules one more time before they kick off so you know what to expect in terms of the format. but, yeah. here we go. this is quite literally going to be a debate like no other. you guys, i'm poking fun about the fact that we will be watching through our hands. jen and nicolle, i want to go to you first. i know in your previous lives you have prepared candidates for debates. do you feel like that gives you a perspective on what will happen tonight that's more or less fraught than the rest of us feel? >> i am going to, for the first time ever, not answer your question because i want to try to not compare this to anything that ever happened before. so i didn't have to prepare anyone to debate someone who is going to end the american experiment. i didn't have to prepare anyone ever to debate someone who was

going to lie everything that he said. i have never had to prepare someone who was reporting for sentencing in a week. i never had to prepare anyone to debate someone that was fundamentally against the idea that the country was founded on. i have ideas how you do it. i have no idea how they did it. my deepest sort of up at night gut aching fear is that we do things like we always do this them. we ask people like me, how did you prep sarah palin, dick cheney, he sat down, there are some things like on the style side -- >> did dick cheney negotiate to sit down? >> he was debating the youngest, john edwards. i don't know why he sat down. but so there is style things that i wonder when i watch this. but there is no parallel to what we're about to watch. >> definitely not. and they can't pretend it's the

same as prepping obama to debate mitt romney. first of all, mitt romney, he looks great right now. let's be honest. i think if you're the biden team though, you have to think about what you can control. you can't control how trump is going to behave. you have to prepare to react to it. you can control how president biden is or he can control it. and so if you are them, you are thinking about what is the best version of joe biden? the best version of joe biden is empathic, scranton joe, speaking in english, right? and very accessible language. he has a gut instincts about that. when i used an acronym, he would chide me for that. the worst version or vulnerability that i don't know if it keeps me up at night in the same way as the future of our democracy, is proving himself. i know this for working for him for a year and a half. meaning his vulnerability is when he is like, i need more data points, i need lists of data points.

you see him with note cards, note cards that have data on -- >> numbers. >> numbers, exactly, chris. a long list of numbers. gdp. job creation. the infrastructure bill and how many jobs have been created in pennsylvania. if he starts giving those statistics and data, you start to lose the audience. and i think that is a thing if you are on the biden campaign you are hoping he doesn't go to prove myself, i have a bit of a chip on my shoulder, i'm very smart and i have done a lot for this country mode. he goes to empathic scranton joe mode. that is something he can control. he can't control how donald trump behaves. >> one of the main questions from the biden perspective. how much do you go after trump for being abnormal and how much do you go after him for being a normal republican. what i mean is trump is such a tseng lar figure. if people are not yet decided they don't want him, the question is, the group of people that are still like, maybe, kind

of you think no about what a wooerd guy he is. do they know that he is going to raise your taxes for this tariff plan and cut rich people's stacks and take another run at the affordable care act and probably try to sign an abortion ban? all the normal stuff that nancy pelosi had a theory of case in 2018 which was affordable care act, kitchen table stuff. in 2022, the theory was dobbs and democracy. don't run against him like a normal republican. talk about the democracy issue. these battles have been playing out in circles of democratic politics about how much relative emphasis to give those two kinds of attack. that's the thing i am really -- i don't have a strong feeling. i think they are both necessary. but navigating that is going to be really interesting because there are a lot of people who know trump's bad but, like, he is literally proposing the most insane sales tax on all international goods that anyone has ever proposed and no one

knows that. >> but i think that -- here's what i worry about. and this is something on the other side of democrats. if democrats are defending the price of stuff as being not as bad as it was before and i promise it's going to cope getting better, they will lose. if you are defending the price anything, you will lou lose. but if you are not taking the tar off of donald trump every minute of every hour ever every day between today and election day you are losing. are it was reported this morning trump's tariff plan raises inflation to levels higher than they have been at any point in the economic tumble the last ten years. so it doesn't matter -- to me, i don't care what he decides it to talk about. but on every single metric, trump would make it worse. >> yeah, right. >> i think it's how you take the tar off, right? it can't be the data. i don't think it's the tariffs argument. it is though trump has been able to run a sort of this outsider, right? i am going to shake things up, changemaker. and i think if you're joe biden and the biden team, you need to

say, like, this guy is not a changemaker. this guy wants to extend tax cuts for corporate america and the highest income. that was the argument by the way in 2012, that barack obama basically ran against mitt romney on when he was the incumbent president. but that still -- i don't think it's the totality of his only goal in the debate but a moment he could break through with an argument like that. he has a hard time doing on the stump. >> as is often happens on these panels, i am exactly -- i don't know where to go. she channels my anxieties, like, directly. a, i don't think i have ever gotten more statler and waldorf texts from friends. i get it. everybody is saying it. but what i cannot get past, i asked my wonderful intern kendall to look this up, this debate is going to be at cnn headquarters in atlanta. that is 5280 feet, ten minutes on the google maps, away from the fulton county courthouse.

this is in so many ways a return to the scene of the crime, right? for donald trump, literally they are in the state tonight that he tried to steal, one of the states he tried to steal in 2020, literally from the man who will be standing feet from him. it is very difficult for me to get my mind around the fact that joe biden comes back to georgia as only the second democrat to win georgia, other than bill clinton in 1992 and jimmy carter who won it twice, because weighs the governor the of gorgeous, joe biden coming back as a president, a record, talk about things he d for the economy, i still have the stamina to do this, which is his main job, get people who are nervous he doesn't have the energy. but donald trump is coming back as the guy who literally refused to peacefully transfer power to the guy standing just to his right. and that is so bizarre for me. it's so odd that i can't get past it. >> he is going to -- >> to get to strategy.

>> he is going to be standing on stage in a state where he is under indictment on felonies, including a rico -- >> he should be on trial right now. if you think about all -- if events were normal, if the world was still earth one the way it is for the way it should be, he would be on trial right now in a rico case with 18 other defendants in the state of georgia. fani willis, the person he sicced his people on to try to get her killed for prosecuting him is here. the two poll workers probably are within less than half an hour from where he is tonight. he has returned to the place where he tried to get them killed for just counting votes. like, he literally is returning to within ten minutes of the scene of a crime. and he is still awaiting indictment for that crime, and how is -- how are we a country that allows that man to stand with the actual president and debate gas prices and food prices? this is insane. >> and that's why, if you pulls out a card and gives me data

point on anything, i might scream so loud that it comes through -- i mean -- >> i will be screaming with you. >> here's the thing. first of all, that he is a convicted felon isn't a point. it's who trump is. who he is standing across. not only should he be on trial in georgia. he should have been tried already. so to me this is not a contest of whose policies lower the price of eggs faster. if he doesn't draw the contrast between what person did with the precious privilege of being the commander-in-chief, stowing state secrets at his whatever it is, golf club, refusing to give them back. waving them around in front of his current campaign manager, overthrowing an election, i mean, fall the things that trump did outloud and publicly and is running on aren't central, if joe biden who said about rudy giuliani, he is a criminal. >> by the way, this is where we get to what joe biden's job --

he has two jobs tonight. number one, the stam. issue. it is the thing that concerns most people. he shuffles when he walks. he is an old guy, right? i think to nicolle's point, his other big job is to turn to that man and say, that is not a president. whatever else you think that he is, what he is not is an american president. i am an american president. you know what i do? i get up every day and try to figure out how to lower your price, make your life affordable, defend the west. that's what i do. you know what he did? he tried to overthrow the government. he tried to get our fellow citizens killed. he doesn't care about you. if he comes back in, he is vowing to literally fire 50,000 federal workers, cage migrants, put them in cages. that is not a president. if joe biden can't do that, then he really is in trouble. >> i would also say, too, that if you think between 2020 and 2024 in georgia, the other thing

that's changed is that what happened in georgia is that the republican establishment in the state of georgia did not bend and did not do what trump wanted, which is why he was not able to overthrow that election. i mean, they fired a u.s. attorney and they arguably committed, according to the state of georgia, who indicted trump for this, committed felonies trying to pressure election administrators into not doing their jobs. what's different now? the reason that case has not gone forward in georgia is because the republican establishment, power structure in the legislature has decided to take fani willis apart, decided to remake the structure of the judiciary in the state of georgia so that effectively the legislature can fire prosecutors when they bring charges that republicans in the legislature don't want. and they have got fani willis under subpoena and bringing her to the senate and created this scandal around her and trying to remove her from the case and that pushed the water uphill to slow that case down after indictment and keep it out of

the courts. and that is not donald trump's doing. and that's the most important thing. it's the republican party's doing and the republican party has since 2020 been brought completely within the project of trump's efforts to defy election results and stay in power without them and that is something that wasn't true four years ago. >> the moderators must bring this up. you can't be in atlanta -- cnn used to be based in atlanta. i hope that by the time we get through the two hours of debate, those things have been litigated. it is incumbent on the moderators -- the mugshot was taken ten minutes from here. not the general will you accept the results of the next election. he has been asked that 437 times. he needs to be asked and presented with the facts of what he did and ask to answer for him. this might be the only chance to ask him. >> just to talk about trump for a moment and his performance, which is -- at some level unpredictsable, some level

totally predictable. i do think something -- we looked at that 2020 footage. and one of the things that is important about that first debate, he was nuts, interrupting the whole time, one thing i have seen, as trump receded a little bit in the memories, the edges have been sanded off a little bit and he has been turned into a sort of ridiculous and comical figure. you see this in meme culture, he is the subject of a million memes on social media and tiktok. it's funny. him as kind of, like, doofus or weirdo or saying funny thing. he is mean. he is a bully. he says really vial, ugly, gross stuffism think that part of the his personality, which is as present as ever, has receded in public memory and part of the job of joe biden is to kind of call that forward and call that out because that's -- it's important for people to remember that. >> and point at it and tell the public what it is that they are seeing. >> nas simple. that he cares about himself and not anybody else. that's the third joe biden job.

>> we are counting down until the first presidential debate of 2024. michigan's democratic governor gretchen whitmer joins us live in a moment. stay with us. s live in a moment. stay with us ♪♪ ♪♪ citi's industry leading global payments solutions help their clients move money around the world seamlessly in over 180 countries... and help a partner like the world food programme as they provide more than food to people in need. together, citi and the world food programme empower families across the globe. ♪♪ let's get started. bill, where's your mask? across the globe.

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♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ here at msnbc we often say watch what they do, not what they say. i think that's a good mantra in general. however, sometimes what they say really does point towards what they are going to do. and so watch this from 2016. as you watch this, think to yourself, did these things come to pass? did the woman on stage here have a crystal ball? >> one of the prides of this country is the peaceful transition of power and no

matter how hard fought a campaign is, at the end of the campaign that the loser concedes to the winner. are you saying you are not prepared now to -- >> what i'm saying that i will tell you at the time. i'll keep you in suspense. >> chris, let me respond to that. that's horrifying. >> do you want to see the court overturn roe v. wade? >> if we put another two or perhaps three justices on, that's really what's going to -- that will happen. i will release my tax returns and that's against my lawyers say don't do it. >> ask yourself, why won't he release his tax returns? and i think there may be a couple of reasons. first, maybe he is not as rich as he says he is. second, maybe he is not as charitable as he claims to be. or maybe he doesn't want the american people, all of you watching tonight, know that he has paid nothing in federal taxes. >> because i'm smart. rz. >> that was the third presidential debate in 2016 between donald trump and hillary

clinton. she may not have won in 2016, but she won the i can see into the future contest. donald trump would not commit to accepting the results of the election. we then went on to have the first non-peaceful transfer portal transfer of power. donald trump did in fact put three just esses on the supreme court who did go on to overturn roe v. wade and donald trump, his finances and charity turned out to become an issue. the trump foundation shut down as a fraud and him racking up multiple felony fraud convictions, including tax fraud, at his business. joy has a special guest. >> indeed. she mightk a psychic. let us now introcues governor gretchen whitmer of the great state of michigan. thank you so much for joining us, governor. >> thank you. >> so let's talk about what you

think president biden needs to do tonight. there are a lot of different constituencies in your state that he needs to speak to. start with union households. it's not something that is a lock for union joe, even though he showed up at a picket line and did all the things. what do you think he needs to do that vote in his direction? >> i think elections and debates are always about the future. and what we are going to see tonight is a very stark contrast between a president who has been on the side of working people, who has done everything to ensure supply chains and grow good paying jobs in this country, a president who has gotten historic money and investment in infrastructure, putting men and women to work, building up our infrastructure and good-paying union jobs. so i think that's president biden shows up with the receipts. the stark contrast is going to be a former president who doesn't have an agenda, doesn't have a vision other than he wants to settle scores.

voters are smart. they are going to be looking for someone who is actually talking about what are they going to do in a second term. so i expect to see president biden really articulate what that is to show people what could be with a second four-year term. i think that will put him in good standing with many voters who are thinking about the same things. what is this country going to look like? what are my opportunities going to be? what about my kids? >> on specific questions of affordability, tariffs, are people aware in michigan of donald trump's tariff, for instance? president biden's chips and sciences investments. are these things coming through for ordinary voters? >> i think they are starting to. the average person is a good, hard working person who is just trying to put food on the table, get the kids off to school or camp or whatever. they are doing things this

summer and show up to work on time. i think as people see this historic infrastructure act. that's how we are fixing the damn roads in michigan, getting people connected to the internet, that's how we are bringing down the costs of energy and helping people afford solar, et cetera. the president has delivered. so i do think that it's starting to seep in. we have to give people a little bit of grace. we know that the average american is working really hard and struggling to get ahead, and this president cares about them and has delivered and is making that easier. >> we know that in michigan there is a sizable muslim and arab population in dear worn. if the question of gaza comes up, what would you want to hear from president biden on that would be compelling particularly to younger voters in your state who may have issues with his policy? >> i think we all watch the violence that is happening with broken hearts. thinking about hostages and all the families that lost loved

ones on october 7th as well as my arab american community and muslim community and palestinian communities, which are not all one in the same. but everyone is hurting. i think that's the truth here. so to understand that, to articulate that, yeah, we know people are hurting, and that's why we have to have a president who is working towards a resolution, to stop the violence, to return hostages, to make sure that there is a plan so that both of these communities can survive and have a home place versus a former president who talked about a muslim ban, who degrades and denigrates communities of color regularly. i think that most people know that a trump presidency is not only going to not improve the situation in gaza and palestine and israel, it could make it measurably worse. that's why i think it's important to recognize the pain that people are feel, but also the solution that he is working towards. >> governor, it's jen psaki.

we have been having a discussion about how much of this debate should be about democracy, trump's criminal convictions, indictments, the fact that it's in georgia, of course, where everything is being delayed, versus all of the kitchen table issues you have been talking about, whether it's health care or the economy. what would you like to see in terms of the balance of topics and discussion? obviously, we are not in a normal election year given who joe biden is running against. >> right. well, you know, president biden has a wealth of things he can talk about. he is showing up with the receipts on everything from protecting women's rights to ensuring that we've got common sense gun safety measures to on shoring supply chains and strengthening our domestic economy with low unemployment. that being said, an overarching concern many have is an effort to undermine our democracy. this is a lingering and real an genuine concern after january 6th. all of that being said, the dinner table issues are always, i think, what is going to be front and center for voters.

what they will make a decision on. that's why tapping into recognizing no one person can control global inflation, but what this president has done is help people keep more money in their pockets, help people create a path to prosperity for them and future generations of americans, our kids and grandkids. thinking about climate. he has gotten more done and has plans for the next four years. contrast that to someone who is running on grievance and settling scores and wants to erode women's rights and offshore supply chains. i think it's a very clear contrast about who is on the side of the american people, and that's joe biden. >> governor gretchen whitmer, thank you very much. >> thank you. i mean, they call her big gretch. >> we are clear she is going to be a presidential candidate if not a president for sure. >> i think we still have elections -- >> we are going to have

elections. >> if there are elections, you can be sure that she is going to be in them. just can be more and more clear over her time as governor that she is headed for a national stage. all right. joining us now from the spin room is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. tell us what you have seeing. we have been talking about how unique this debate set is. but a spin room is kind of always a spin room. have you seen anything tonight that tips your -- tips things for you in terms of what things will be like or who is there to support the candidates or anything else that can inform what we should be looking for tonight? >> reporter: hey, rachel. everybody, look, i think the question here for donald trump was which allies were going to show up tonight in his defense. of course, those who are under consideration to be his running mate, his vp, now that mike pence is not seeking a second term alongside donald trump, is who is going to be here. and we have that answer. and that is jamie advance, the

ohio senator, marco rubio, the florida senator, doug burgum, the north dakota governor, tim scott, senator out of south carolina. they will eb here in the spin room following tonight's debate. individuals who are not here as far as we know at this time included melania trump, the former first lady. we have yet to see her on the campaign trail with donald trump. he announced in november of 2022 the one time we did see her at a quasi campaign stop was when the two of them went and voted at a florida polling location in march. at that point she was asked whether she would be seen on the campaign trail ahead. she said, quote, stay tuned. she didn't -- has not appeared at any of the trials, civil or criminals ones in new york. she was not there for post-speeches after his four criminal indictments. not on the campaign trail so far. the contrast there, if she doesn't come tonight, jill biden, the current first lady,

is slated to walk out on stage at the close of the debate alongside her husband joe biden. the question here is whether nel anya trump will do that alongside her husband. >> can i ask you a super awkward question about that specifically? if jill biden, dr. jill biden, after the debate is over, walks out, grabs the president's hand, yay, i'm here, and melania trump has not arrived on site, can somebody else play that role? i mean, there is no audience there. like, it's very tightly controlled. the two commercial breaks that will happen, they are not allowed to speak to anybody who is there to support them. all of this stuff is very tightly calibrated according to with what has been negotiated between the campaigns and cnn in advance. is it only a wife who gets to walk out on stage? could he pick, like, his favorite minion to walk out there with him? >> reporter: we are told that one other close family member would be able to walk out on stage with him, but we know that

don jr. is not going to be here tonight because of a prior family event related to one of his children. eric trump we have not seen so far here. he could be here. of course, ivanka trump could be an option. but she, like her mother-in-law, has not appeared on the campaign trail through the election cycle either, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard, thank you. welling be back to you soon. >> thanks. >> you guys know that behind the scenes my big bet, my big shoot the moon bet on trump's vice presidential pick is ivanka. >> i think he would want to, yeah. >> do it. >> i don't think it's any of those dudes. i think it's ivanka, always has been. i thought it would be -- >> i thought the dark horse -- i thought we would get to the often neglected tiffany trump. >> she is a -- >> she is doing all right for

herself. maybe she could be the one that goes out, that the family member, because i feel like she often is not included in the same category. >> which is why -- >> are you picking her tos nice? are you picking her because you think she is a contender? >> i'm a bleeding heart. i am a squish. inclusion of love. >> who knows who? if trump cares about one thing, it's the casting and shot. >> it's a weird shot without anyone. >> correct. and he knows she is his best wife right now, the only one. the third wife. but i think trump is acutely ware in his reptilian survival way it would be helpful to have her there. no one knows what goes on in a marriage. but i wouldn't rule it out. >> getting there might -- >> we don't know ma the agreement was. >> i mean, there is -- i mean, be on the lookout for stunts. this is a closely regulated

debate -- >> i think think is good. >> with the microphones off, no audience, the red lights that will signal to them. all the stuff that has been negotiated. they can't have props, can't bring note cards, can't talk to anybody. it's very tightly regulated. whether or not it's a good thing, i don't think it means we should preclude the possibility that somebody will try to pull a stunt. donald trump has not announced a vice presidential candidate. his wife does not appear to be there. we don't know who will walk out on his arm at the end when jill biden walks out. >> may be his biggest audience in a while. if he is going to do something wild -- >> just sayin'. all right. now a little over an hour away from the start of the debate. steve kornacki will walk us through the state of the race, what the schizophrenia could gain or lose tonight. a lot still to come. big not. stay with us. still to come. big not. stay with us to me, harlem is home.

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. i'm not here to call his lies. everybody knows he is a liar. i want to make sure. >> you are the liar. >> god. i want to make sure. >> mr. president, can you let him finish? >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> last time was fun. joining us at the big board is the great steve kornacki. steve, we know you have been crunching the data-driven approach to this, what's at stake and who is persuadable. we are expecting tons of people to watch tonight. let's talk about the scenarios for these guys. >> starting off where the race stands now. this is the average of all of the polls basically over the last month nationally. when you do that, you get trump 44.5 and biden 43.6. a one point race in the rimgs right now. close. i know, what a surprise. so what does -- coming into tonight though, biden as an incumbent president, he has this

particular challenge. what you are seeing here, these are all the incumbent presidents in the era of television debates here since 1980 at least, what was their approval rating coming into the first debate. you see biden's average is 40.7%. and the ominous company that puts him in jimmy carter, 1980, georgia bush sr., donald trump a little bit higher in the approvaling, all lost re-election. you see the candidates who won were obama, bush, clinton and reagan, a fair distance between biden and them. one thing biden needs to do tonight is get that number higher if he can. take a look at this in terms of expectations. this is interesting. "new york times" sienna poll out yesterday asked folks watching the debate what do they expect. will biden do well? a plurality said not well. same question of trump. a pretty big majority said he'll do well. so the expectations on this are that trump's going to have a

better night than biden. now how does that play out? does that set a lower bar for biden? might work to his advantage? that's an interesting dynamic. the gap in expectations for the candidates. of course, i think one of the reasons for that gap can be found in the next number. also from that same "new york times" sienna poll, they asked about the issue of age and asked a specific question. is the age of a candidate such an issue that the candidate is not capable of handling the job of president? and when asked that way, it's basically a 3-1 difference. 45% said that applies to joe biden. only 16% said that applies to donald trump. so again that's the doubt, i think, that biden is dealing with us. that's the reason the expectations are low for him. flip it around, if you're biden, that's the opportunity. because if this is holding you back, what you are looking at here, you got 90 minutes tonight to go toe-to-toe with donald trump with no one else in between. you have the opportunity

potentially to allay a lot of those doubts. we will see what happens there. then we say opportunity. it's also this question. quinnipiac, they asked people watching the debate tonight, is there a chance because of it you will change your mind? what people say they will do versus what they actually do are often different. to give you a sense, 16%, that's not a small number in a close presidential race nationally. 16% said they may change their minds. that's even distributed. biden supporters and trump supporters, and especially, this is that wild card group that could swing the election, the people right now who say they are voting for robert f. kennedy jr., a third said they might change their mind based on what happens tonight. for either candidate a particular opportunity with that third-party vote that exists right now. >> steve, in terms of that last slide, do these people say they will be watching the debate? >> yes. if you watch it, is there a chance it will change your mind, is how it's asked here. >> you have to think the number

of people supporting robert f. kennedy jr. are still going to be watching the -- a, they know enough about politics to be supporting robert f. kennedy jr. they will be watching even though they know he is not in it. c, then they say they are persuadable. seems like you have to be talking about four people there. >> the one thing that you find in a lot of these polls, when people offered the third-party option, they don't necessarily have an allegiance to that candidate. it's a way of expressing i don't want the two major party candidates. that may be a different group of voters than people who agree with kennedy on a lot. >> thank you. ari melber joins us. i have to say if i -- if we were behind the veil of

>> while it sounds believable that so many people think chubb will do well, they watched the 2020 debate and kicked him out of office. they did not help trump, they hurt him. the thing that is interesting about joe biden, the extent that you can be objective about any of this, you are referring to people's reactions. the best we can tell from reactions, joe biden has had better debate experiences than donald trump. he has more experience than any living candidate in debates on the national stage because he has been on the vp ticket and run for president three times, having secured the nomination once, and is doing it again. he has debated more than anyone. he is pretty good at it. the jitters and bad debates

that you have to get through, he has been through them. it is interesting that joe biden begins underestimated on the debate stage, but haven't proven himself that after debates, people do vote for him. >> this is consistent, it happened before the state of the union. people never have expectations or high expectations about joe biden. it was george w. bush, they said that about him. but i think the same thing is true of joe biden. he has been such a constant figure in our politics for so long that people almost have an amnesia about him too and people forget, wait a minute, this guy has been doing this she was 29 years old. he has run for president multiple times, he has been on the debate stage with other people. he got the nomination. younger ones, people of color, all of these variety of people. pete buttigieg is a great communicator. he beat them all and got the nomination. so he has some quality and skill that people are always surprised about. >> in the democratic party, he was almost like furniture. 40 years that is there, you do not see furniture when it is there every day. but sometimes look back -- [

laughter ] sometimes you do not see it and then when you sit in a good, comfy chair, you remember, oh, this is familiar in a good way. >> the thing i wanted to add to your point about the state of the union, he did not just exceed expectations. he started quoting reagan about foreign policy, a please note that he would go, grabbing the reagan mantle because there is no competition for that, really. but his best moment was in ad lib. it was when they started cheering about crime committed by someone in the country illegally. and biden said, well. and he pointed to the republican senator. it is true. he corroborated joe biden saying, i tried to fix immigration, i went along with all the republican ideas, trump killed it. the state of the union exceeded expectations, but it's high point was in ad lib. where he tried to grab the upper ground on immigration. >> it is important, and stylistically important of, is

he on his toes? is he in command of the situation? >> the upside steve pointed out is crucial. but i think that polling is part of the issue for biden right now. and the reason that this race is where it is. there is an expectation of the president being a larger-than- life figure. particularly in the media age. in 2020, there was a little bit of exhaustion with how much larger than life donald trump was in the job that he was doing. joe biden is not an omnipresent person. in the public imagination, donald trump still is, at least the thought of him. and the idea that the number is so skewed, 60% think he will do well, dude, if you have watched him talk recently. again, it is the branding. it is the salesman shtick. the reason it is effective is because you just repeat this, you posted of times and it lodges somewhere in the back of people's minds.

i thought that was a very interesting polling result that speaks to me about where we are in this race right now. >> but it is a reminder, as one of the former executives aside, it is television. >> that is good. >> the reality is, since john f. kennedy, this business, the business of politics, has really gone to the person who has some performative skill. there is a reason president obama is a larger-than-life figure. not just being the first lack president, but he had a command of television. bill clinton as well. ronald reagan was a natural performer. what donald trump has in the television, the advantage he has on television, he is literally a television act or. he was on a hit tv show for a long time. people, number one, have a comfort with him that believes how cuckoo he is because they are comfortable with him from

the apprentice. so they know that guy. and he performs for them and entertains them. as people are entertained, in a way, they put aside, well, he is talking like a . so he is able to get away with things because of his television skills. and hopefully tonight, joe biden will bring out the other stuff, which is his name -- meanness, cruelty, and his madness. >> one thing.trump does not do on television is interact with people -- >> that is correct. >> we will see what biden puts him up against tonight. and we come back, our countdown continues to this critical debate taking place tonight in about one hour in atlanta. stay with us. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone.

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>> we are about an hour away from the first presidential debate of 2024. we will have every second of it right here on msnbc. we know you could watch this anywhere. we are very grateful you are watching it here with us. we will make a night of it and we will have more fun than anybody else. please don't leave. obviously, every presidential debate, each candidate tries to paint a dire portrait of what the country will look like if their opponent, heaven forbid, is elected instead of them. here was one such prediction from donald trump when he face- off against joe biden four years ago. >> we are on the road to success, i am cutting taxes and he wants to raise everybody's taxes. he wants to put new regulations on everything. he will not kill it. if he gets in, you will have a depression, the likes of which you have never seen. your 401(k)s will go to --. and it will be a very, very sad day for this country. >> if he gets in, you will have a depression in the likes of which you have never seen. your 401(k)s will go to h-e- double hockey sticks. joe biden has gotten in has he presided over a catastrophic depression as job -- donald

trump addicted? the last time we had a job streak this long of an implement below 4%, it was the early 1960s. under joe biden, the united states has the best economy in the world. the world bank just outside of the u.s. economy is so good that it is actually stabilizing the whole world economy. about those 401(k)s, which donald trump said would immolate if joe biden got in there actually, they have gone up 11% on average last year. that is thanks in large part to the stock market under joe biden, repeatedly hitting all- time record highs, with the dow topping 40,000 for the first time ever just last month. in other words, a whole scape of economic depression. >> that donald trump prediction about a terrible economy under joe biden did not age well. that has its own consequences in terms of the substantive state of the economy heading

into this residential election in joe biden making the case that the american people ought to return them for another four years. but my colleague, chris hayes, has been focused all year on this key question of if you are better off than you were four years ago. >> yes. thank you. on the show, we have been trying to help answer that one question that comes up babe sickly every presidential campaign. >> remember ronald reagan talk about jimmy carter? >> ronald reagan used to ask, are you better off? >> are you better off? >> rough. >> better off. >> better off. >> better off than you were four years ago? it does come up every time. but as i said, if you are the trump campaign, maybe you do not want to ask it this time around. we were all there. four years ago was june 2020. and this is what it looked like. >> tonight, we have passed another milestone in this country as today, the number of coronavirus cases topped 2.5

million. that includes more than 125 thousand deaths. and tonight, much of the focus is on the southern and southwestern states where cases are mounting. >> we did so well before the plague and we are doing so well after the plague. >> this video obtained by the washington post raising questions. the trump campaign asked why workers were appearing to remove stickers promoting social distancing. this one reading, do not sit here, please. abc news affirming the post reported that the campaign directed those stickers to be taken down. a campaign official said the rally was in full compliance with local requirements. those attending were entering the arena at their own risk. signing a waiver to agree not to sue the campaign if they get sick. >> it was a four years ago today that the story broke. the trump campaign took the stickers off the seat.

it was a significant, remember, that was trump's infamous rally in tulsa, oklahoma, exactly one week earlier, the big back to the campaign trail. the one that everyone told him not to do because it would be a massive disaster. >> for months now, large gatherings have been canceled. no concerts, no stadiums filled for sporting events. but tonight in tulsa, oklahoma, and arena is packed with thousands of rallying for president trump's re-election. >> the president left washington late today for an event he is nothing in 110 days, the campaign trail. >> the event in oklahoma is unbelievable. crowds are unbelievable. >> my premise would be that it should be postponed until it is safe to actually have an event where people can come together and be a part of the political process. >> today, we learn six members of the president's advanced team tested positive for coronavirus.

>> they will be given a mask. the cdc guidelines are recommended but not required. when you come to the rally, as any event, you assume a personal risk. that is just what you do. >> we now know that trump supporters were intentionally lied about that risk. one of those supporters was herman cain. the former godfather ceo. that is him at the rally, there on the left without a mask, not social distancing, everyone is packed together. a week later, herman cain was in the hospital with covid. he was there for a month. he died on july 30th. years later, trump aid cassidy hutchinson wrote in her book that the white house's chief of staff told her, quote, we killed herman cain. trump's tragic and catastrophic handling of that once in a century pandemic, the plague, was the defining characteristic of four years ago, although we think we have all blocked out a little bit. but four years ago today, the stock market was a 25,000 here today it is that nearly 40,000. four years ago, the on opponent rate was at 11 of us percent,

it is 4% today. it was a summer of widespread unrest and anti-violence when kyle which and how skilled you protesters, when the sitting president used tear gas and civil rights protesters to clear the streets for the bible photo op. when he floated delaying the election because he was losing in the polls. when he sprung rajasthan for prison so he could help with the efforts to steal set election. the country was in crisis. every minutes, a palpable life- threatening crisis, every day, on multiple fronts. our nervous systems were constantly overwhelmed. yes. ask yourself, take a second. ask yourself, are you better off today than during the summer of chaos and despair four years ago? i think the answer is pretty clear. >> chris, thank you for that. >> stephanie rowe joins us now. stephanie, thinking about the economic part of this, you and i talked about this monday night, how much of the biden economy, the success of the biden economy can be characterized as just a bounce back from the artificial,

externally imposed hardships of covid? and how much of it is because the economy has been well- managed? >> i would say both. first, chris's better off segment is so good. every time i see it, i love it. and i hate myself that i did not think of it. it is both. we have had a bounce back. so it is not the best argument when the biden campaign talks about whereon implement was and where it is. because the truth is, when joe biden took office, on implement was superhigh because of the pandemic. that is not a great argument. but there are so many economic winds. we have talked about it many times. our economy versus anywhere else in the world. but inflation looms large. we cannot deny it. if the president gets up on the stage tonight and basically does his version of chris's segment, it will not work because there are a lot of

people who do not feel great. two thirds of the people who are going to vote this year have never experienced inflation above 4% until now. they do not feel good. the president has to be aware of that. and what he needs to do is say, you are right. life is expensive. housing is expensive, gas is expensive, groceries are really expensive. but the guy next to me, donald trump, what he is proposing is disastrous. this week, 16 nobel prize- winning economist, not the biden campaign, came out and said trumps tariffs, his economic proposals, will be a bomb into inflation. they will be disastrous. that is what president biden needs to thread tonight. he cannot say that biden economics are great in the world is great, even though we had a great recovery. man, anybody you talk to will say life is expensive and they have the right to say it. >> even though the u.s. economic recovery after covid is better than every other major economy recovery after covid -- >> but when you go to the grocery store, you do not say to yourself -- >> nobody feels what it is like

here compared to -- >> you do not say that london broil customer in portugal. >> we had this graphic use on my show when the g-7 happened, it was a family photo. it was the approval rating, the net approval rating of each of the leaders in the g7. they are all really bad. biden is actually the second best of all of them. and the reason they are all really bad in that photo is the exact same reason across the board. it is not, like, the particular governing agenda of macron or >>, or whoever, it is because everyone has experienced this peer to stephanie's point, it is an important point that can get lost. if you go back and look at the 80s and reagan, people had experienced inflation a lot more recently at that level. this is the first time things went crazy. you see across the board. also i think what is a little bit reassuring, at least gravity matters and the fact matter, is that biden is doing better than say our neighbor to

the north, justin trudeau, whose approval rating is much worse than joe biden's. even the economy in canada that is doing appreciably worse than the american economy. >> we talk to young people my kids age. there in the 20s. part of it is comparative. at my kids age, i had them, and we could afford to have three kids. and we had a house. even though it was expensive, we could afford to do those things. they would not even think about having fit kids because they cannot afford it. they have to live with multiple roommates. the things that younger people, biden's issue on the economy, when you pull people and ask, do you think the economy is good in your state, they say it is good. the national economy, they say it is a recession. if you ask housing, how are your personal finances are doing, people will say i think i'm doing good, i'm doing well. but then they say the economy is doing terribly. people just decided economy -- the economy is bad even when they are taking trips to bali -- >> they are. >> everyone's got money. but the people who do not have money cannot afford their lives are millennial's and nz. and that is also biden's

weakest cohort. so it is the younger people who cannot afford to do the things that their gen x parents could afford to do at their age, they feel that acutely. they actually cannot afford to do the things their parents could do when they were in their 20s and 30s. >> and these people running for president have an inspiring message for them. >> chris, you are talking about it in terms of trumps policies. these gimmicky policies about, oh, get rid of all income tax. will that be fantastic? instead, we will just ask all purchases. i mean, the tariffs the thing is insane. when biden goes to explain that tonight, which he inevitably will, is that going to sound like he is talking policy in numbers and that is too granular for people to get? or can you talk about somebody else's policy proposals in the crazy economic impact they will have without it sounding like you are in the weeds? >> it is a great question and it is a difficult circle to

square. i think you can talk about the trump taxpayer trump is running on raising people's taxes. full stop. that is even before we got to, like, i compared it to wanting to rip up the highway system and replace it with canals. that is how nuts this idea of going back to tariffs are. even before we get to that, even before that, he was saying a ring around the country, 10% tariff on all goods. that is a 10% tax on all imported goods. everything from avocados to iphones. a 10% tax. now he is talking about what would essentially be a 150% tax. if you economists ran the numbers, it would be a $5000 a

year increase. you do not have to be in the weeds to realize he is proposing a $5000 a year tax increase for middle-class and working-class families, which is a, backed up by the numbers, b, backed up by the numbers that he not only floated this idea and is defending it in public, but it is a thing you can understand. >> yes to do two things. he has to say, yes, this guy is not only going to raise your taxes by $5000 and make your life more expensive, you also cut leaders taxes. he will keep the tax cut that is giving them more money than you. i'm saying i will let that techs expire. but then i think he does need to brag a little bit about the things he has done. he thinks he actually has done economically have helped people. he can say, i am the guy that lowered your granny's insulin prices to $35. she was out of able to afford her insulin. she is able to afford it now. if you let me back in, i will extend it to everybody with insulin. i am the guy that has 3 million to 5 million people student loans disappear. i know a couple of people who got the magical email. and they cried when they got it. 30,000 or $40,000 disappeared from their ledger. so he can say, i am the guy that is forgiving student debt. i promised i would do it, i have did it. >> he can hit trumpeter in the eyes on america first.

there are a lot of people who actually like the idea of america first. donald trump's idea was isolationist and he did not do it. joe biden actually put forth the chips act. and that is changing the game. you are seeing in states like arizona in places like new hampshire, huge manufacturing plants will be put in place, mike donald trump, who said, i am bringing fox con to wisconsin and we will have eight zillion jobs, and it never happened. joe biden can turn the idea of america first right on its head and say, i delivered it in a good way. it has happened. >> manufacturing jobs, construction jobs, joe biden walking the picket line with uaw when they wanted record contracts from the auto industry, all of that is very rare. >> i think the problem has been illustrated by this conversation here. he cannot try to do all of it. he has to decide to do one thing. yes, stuff is expensive and it stinks, we all feel it. but you think it is expensive now, it will be 10 times more expensive under this guy. and i said yes to pick two things. i think people that know as much as you all know, it is hard to pick two things, candidates have to pick two because voters will barely remember one. >> when requesting. 48 is the election i have been thinking about, which is the

famous truman, you know. >> you think, we just came through the great war. >> can i just interrupt you? sorry, i was just going to talk about the 1946 midterm. >> this is a conversation that would only happen here. >> 1948, i thought to myself, in my whole life, i never thought of that. >> at one level, you think, wow . we won, we beat the . we emerged from this unbelievably difficult period of, you know, price caps, people working in factories, you had all the american western front, and then we come back to normal and you think people would be, like, awesome. we are rocking. and it was not that at all. the national mood was incredibly dyspeptic. there were incredible amounts of, you know, truman's disapproval, the midterms, he got shellacked.

48, he was running behind the whole time because of this lingering sense, even after this amazing the three, that things were still unsettled. and i think there is something to be learned there about that. >> that is what you said in your amazing package. it was not in your script, it was in a side bit. covid, which no one deals with, it is this unprocessed bundle of despair and loss. lots of people know someone who did die. and we were so desperate to put it all back together and act, oh, nothing happened, nothing to see here. it is an unprocessed collective grief that no one can do with and talk about. >> coming out of a catastrophe. the people who are in charge always get it. they always got shellacked. and it is because of the loss, the grief, and the upset being put on the people who were in charge of it. churchill got turfed out at the end of the war too. >> i literally had that thought in my head when you said that. >> that was the other thing. >> much more to come as the debate draws closer.

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>> raphael warnock, there to support president biden in his

campaign. hello, alex. >> hey, rachel. i am delighted to be here with reverend and senator raphael warnock. there is maybe no better person to talk about what is involved in really winning in a state than you. you had to run back 79 times for the senate. but one of the things i am interested in, you know, you had to debate a character who is like the trump of georgia, herschel walker. a man that is prone to fisticuffs, at least verbally. maybe he does not have the firmest grasp of the facts. trump -like in character. you are on the debate stage with him, but you won the debate in the senate race against him. i wonder if there are lessons from that experience in that debate that you think are applicable tonight as joe biden tries to keep georgia in his ledger. >> first of all, it is great to be here. i ran against somebody who was anointed by donald trump to run

against me. and i think, in many ways, they are two peas in a pod. if donald trump is talking, you can be pretty certain that he is hot. and here was someone who had spent his life focus on himself. and running against someone whose whole life has been about service. that is the story of joe biden. and i think, look, the viewers get a chance tonight to see that there is a stark contrast between these two men. one has really spent his whole life focused on people. in joe biden's case, and many ways, informed by his pain. i think about the tragic story in the early days of his senate career, of losing a wife and a child. and then later losing a son. when you are with joe biden, a closer from a distant, you see that this is a man who cares. i think even as the candidates

talk tonight, the thing that the people of georgia in our country have to ask themselves as each man talks, is there somebody who really cares? if we get outside of the culture wars, you know when you are talking about somebody who has a genuine interest in things, you know, somehow, donald trump does not come up when i think about that. >> the polling and the recording consistently shows joe biden having an issue declining support among communities of color, specifically black voters, especially in the state of georgia. when you are in the room with black voters, young voters in the state of georgia, what are you hearing? i mean, how keyed in are they to this administration and its policies? a lot of which have been particularly focused on policies that help the young and people of color. >> let me first of all push back against something that the trump campaign has been pushing. you are not going to see droves of black voters turn out to

vote for donald trump. that is not going to happen. we need to make sure that our people show up. that same coalition that elected me five times in georgia shows up for joe biden. i would be worried, alex, if we did not have a story to tell about the work that we have been doing in a very, very difficult time in our country. but the fact of the matter is, black votes are up 60% since the pandemic. and we have seen the shrinking of the racial wealth gap. part of that is due to the fact that joe biden had the nerve, he had the audacity and compassion to cancel student debt. and it was donald trump who bragged that the supreme court led by his nominees slapped back the first effort of the

president to cancel student debt. he did it anyway. i can tell you this. i go in rooms all across the state. over the last few months, i have been doing this little exercise. i literally ask people, have you or anybody that you know, anybody you know, heather student debt canceled? i have not been in a room yet where somebody's hand has not gone up. i am proud of that, proud that the president did it, proud that i pushed him to do it in our conversations. this narrows the racial wealth gap. so what we have to do to help people to understand who did that. >> that was my second question. are they connecting that to this administration? >> look, it is the work of campaigns to keep telling the story. the same way it is the work of the preacher to keep preaching the gospel every sunday morning. you do not get a sunday off. it is still good news, still the gospel, but people have to hear it. at the same time, again, i

think that our country has been through so much over the last several years. a once in a century pandemic. i think often about how many people that we lost during 9/11, which was tragic, about 3000 people or so. we lost 1 million people in the pandemic. we have been through 20 years of war. on top of that, we have the demagogues of hate, division, revenge, and retribution, and bigotry. just sowing the seeds of discord in the body politics. trump is a plague on the american conscience. and so what we've got to do what we've got to ask, who will actually make your life better? who will be thinking about your family? will it be the man who passed a $2 trillion tax cut for the richest of the rich? or the president who passed the single largest tax cut for middle and working-class families in american history? his name is joe biden. >> the facts are there, it is just getting people to listen to them. i will go back to new york.

rachel, back over to you. >> much appreciated. trump is a plague on the american conscience. >> i was just going to write that down. >> very impressive. every debate has it own rules. this debate tonight has rules that are different than the debates you are used to. we will let you know how it will all be run after this very quick break that we are about to take. i am telling you, this way, with this emphasis, because this will be the last break we take before the debate starts. so do what you got to do. we will be right back.

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>> primary debates where candidates all in the same party debate each other to try to get their party's nomination for president. those have been weird and getting weirder for a long time now in our politics. especially on the republican

side. i the time they got to their fourth debates, the fourth republican primary debate this year in this cycle, that thing was moderated by a random podcast host and sponsored by a little known right-wing social media company, famous for hosting i get kicked out of everywhere else. in their leading candidate for the republican nomination for president never seriously considered showing up for that debate, or for any of the republican primary debates this year. so the interparty debates, the primary debates started sort of going downhill a little while ago, perhaps bottoming out this year on the republican side. general election debate though, the actual presidential debates between actual presidential candidates, nominees of the major parties, those have been pretty normal. those have been fairly predictable in format for decades now. until this year. of course, we have had to go and throw that out with the bathwater as well.

following widespread speculation that either of these candidates particularly wanted to face-off again after their two debates four years ago, president joe biden finally dared former president trump to debate him. saying, quote, make my day, how. and in fact, by the end of that day, a general election debate was scheduled. bizarrely, it was scheduled for june. here we are. and then a second one was scheduled three months after that, for september. now neither of the two weird general election debates will be run by the nonpartisan commission on presidential debate, which has done all of them for the past 36 years, until this year. instead, tonight's is run by our friends at cnn. septembers will be run by friends at abc news. there was a funny moment this year when the trump campaign belatedly tried to get a fox news debate added after the fact, added to the cnn one. but the biting campaign and left them off about that.

and so here we are. there will be two general election debate, run by news organizations. god bless cnn tonight, good luck to them. they have a lot of responsibility here. the moderators from cnn have an impossible job and they are under nuclear hot scrutiny. tepper and denna basch are both excellent and unflappable journalists and good people. they will, of course, be under nuclear hot scrutiny tonight, as any moderator is in a high- stakes debate like this. worse though than usual, the republicans, the trump campaign and the candidate himself, they have been relentlessly attacking denna basch and jake tapper before this event starts tonight. that's, of course, is a form of working the refs to try to get them to treat you better or at least be intimidated by you in the room. that will not work on

professionals like jake tapper and denna basch. but it does not mean that the officials in the trump campaign are not trying. cnn will make a lot of important decisions tonight that may very well impact the way people judge the material performance of each of these candidate. the relative performances of each of these candidate. cnn will make decisions on the set, the lighting, the camera angles, and when to use split screen versus full-screen shots of the candidates, whether or not to allow the camera to show candidates even when their mics are muted. the event will take place at cnn studios in atlanta. cnn already negotiated the terms and logistics for tonight with campaigns, including qualification requirements. of you has discerned by now, there will be the two major party candidates debating tonight. the independent vexing skeptic conspiracy theorist candidate did not meet the threshold to participate under cnn's debate rules for tonight, despite repeated multimillion dollar investments from trump donors to try to keep rfk in the race.

here are the rules tonight as we understand them, in terms of how biden and trump will compete. there are no opening statements at the beginning. at the end of the debates, each candidate will get a two minute closing statement. there was a coin toss. the winner of the coin toss have the opportunity to choose either which side of the stages podium would be on, or whether he wanted to go first or second with his closing statement. joe biden won the toss. he chose to take the podium on the right side of the stage. that means you will see them tonight on the right side of your tv screen. i left donald trump to choose whether he wanted his closing statement to be the first one or the second one. he chose to go second. the podium for the two candidates are identical. trump, as i said, on the left, biden on the right. candidates cannot bring any notes or props. they will be provided a pad of paper, a pen, a bottle of water, and that is it. for each questionnaire asked,

each candidate has two minutes to answer. in the other candidate it's a one minute rebuttal. then there can be a one minute response to that rebuttal. then there is an extra minute that can be allotted at the discretion of the moderators. yikes, pray for them. importantly, it is not a candidate's time, if it is not the candidate's time to speak, his microphone will be muted. we do not know how that will work in practice, but that is a big deal in terms of how the overall dynamic and pace will happen tonight. a lot of the details of that will be important, but also are uncertain before they start. if your mike is muted but you are really hollering, is it possible that the speaker's microphone or the moderator's microphone might pick up your yelling from across the stage? if your microphone is cut, but you are yelling, will cnn show you mouthing words that cannot be understood except by lip

readers? i mean, we do not know. we will have to see how the candidates behave and how cnn handles it. there is a red light that signals timing. the red light will flash when there are five seconds left. it will turn solid red when time is expired. for 60+ years, normal presidential debate had no breaks for commercials. tonight, we will have ad breaks, two of them. during these 3 1/2 minute breaks, candidates may not speak with any staff members or supporters who are there in the room. and as one final small mercy, there will be no audience tonight. so that means no playing to the crowd, no reaction from the crowd, and yet another variable that will seem weird and unusual for those of us who are used to watching debates like this. the whole enchilada slated for 90 minutes tonight. those 90 minutes will either flyby or it will be the longest 90 minutes of your life. we will see. >> lawrence o'donnell joins us now. good to have you. >> let's talk about the most

absurd of the rules. the way i see it. by the way, at the outset, i usually do not get any agreement on this. the idea that you will have commercial breaks and you cannot talk to staff or anyone is breathtakingly absurd if you understand the job that we are talking about here. the job of the presidency has advisers in the room all the time. you are never alone. >> so that is the crazy thing. the other thing that never happens in the oval office is that someone runs in and says you have two minutes to tell me what your position is on this. so the two minute thing is nutty. not having an opportunity to talk to advisers is not tea. all of that. because it has nothing to do with the job of the presidency. you will not see a single thing on display tonight except demeanor that has anything to do with the job of the

presidency. if i was running this, they would get the questions in advance. i want your best answer, not the thing that comes off the top of your head. you can have as many staff people as you want up there, your secretary of state, anyone you want. you might have an incentive for appearances purpose is to have as few as possible, because of the way that it would look. i want all of the staff microphone, so that when you want to consult with them, i want to hear what advice they give you and what advice you reject to, and what advice you accept. and then we are getting close to what the job actually is. >> i love that. >> we are close to a good reality show pitch. i think i am ready to greenlight this. >> we can test the mutated microphones. if you beat chris's microphone right now and you yell at me, we will find out. >> weights, control room, seriously, can we do that? is it possible? okay, chris, you are muted. >> i never yell! i maintain perfect equilibrium! >> on tv, could you all hear him? [ laughter ]

>> i do not know how this will work. you are also asking about this before, i'm not sure, this may be known. this may be something that is known but i just do not know it. who is writing the on and off button on the mike's? is it denna and jake doing that? or is it a control room thing? >> kristin walker has a piece today talk about encouraging these moderators to use their buttons, but i believe there is precedent to the moderators being the ones using it, but i'm not sure either. >> can i say, i think the worst, i think the mute button is the worst of the things for the rules. the problem, you have talked about this a lot, we have all talked about it on our shows, this missed memory of who trump is is part of his advantage. people do not necessarily remember how chaotic he was and that is why he did not get re- elect it. i worry that muting him gives him the opportunity to appear more stable than he really is.

it makes him seem more normal because you will not be able to hear him freak out, which he will freak out. >> olivia last night made the point that he is incapable of self-control. you're putting a self control mechanism on him to give him the self-control that he does not have, which is to stop interrupting. again, the interruptions, you know, in terms of temperament or who is best suited for the job, the interruptions last time in the first debate were constant. they did not illuminate the two men's different policy agendas, but they did illuminate the character of the man who was doing the interrupting. >> the other thing, the other dynamic that we are going into this come about a quarter of an hour away from starting. i will tell you guys right now in terms of housekeeping, as soon as we get to 9:00 on the dot eastern, we have a really rigid countdown in terms of when we actually get started. heading towards that, it is more than state of the union, more of an oval office address in the way that discipline works.

coming into this, the baggage here, it is just the history of what happens when incumbent presidents have their first debate. incumbent presidents at the first debates almost always a bomb. george h.w. bush bombed, barack obama bombed. bill clinton bombed. the first debate for an incumbent president when he is going for a second term is almost always, i think, maybe always, in the modern area, viewed as a disaster for the incumbent president. i do not know if that is coincidence or something about being president that uniquely sets you up to do poorly in your first debate. >> do not do a lot of debating. >> no one does. >> we can ask the question, do debates matter? i do nothing that you can find proof that they do. i do not think that you can go back to the history beginning in 1960 where, you know, nixon lost by less than 1%. any debate where you can, i mean, i watched john kerry win three in a row against george w. bush and win. and george w. bush won 1.5%

more votes in the end. i do not know that anyone who, you know, can point to a single debate at any point in this process and say that one right there was the one. it actually made a difference in the results. >> i'm sorry, go ahead. >> the other thing is that they usually have it much closer to voting. on top of that, it is the other thing that is new here. we are in june. does anyone remember what happened four months ago? >> i think this is about narrative switching. the reason joe biden said to donald trump, make my day, it was not this zeal to debate. i think it was the need for some dynamic switching. i think some of it happened after the conviction. there is some dynamic switching. at least in one poll among dependents. i think what the biden gambit was, it was not necessarily the, you know, the race changing dynamics of a debate,

but it was an appetite to see if there is some dynamic shifting, some narrative switching, some of this, seeing him for who he really is, ugly, cruel, and insane things. what may have put them over the edge, i do not know this. one fox stopped airing the speeches, it was, like, oh. i got a call that sunday that said, you know, see if you can find out why fox did not carry the speech. was it crazy? off the walls. this was the first electrocution, but sarah cooper has now had a vote, you know, she is back. it was bonkers. >> you are saying fox may have stopped carrying trumps speeches because trump's speeches were hurting him? >> i have no idea why they stopped carrying them, but they stopped carrying them. it was around the same time that the debate comes to be. i think that biden had an appetite for the whole country to see trump as he actually is. is >> but to also see him appeared for the biden campaign, they understand that he has two

fundamental problems. fundamental problem number one is people not feeling good about their own economic lives and not feeling like they can afford things. the earth is something she can do about that in a debate, but somethings they cannot. the biggest drag for him is the age issue. the idea of whether he has the physical stamina to be president for another four years. the only thing to do a summer debate, first of all, they are seeing some polls shifting in his favor. i think they would love to have some momentum that settles their own party. they needed to settle democrats on the idea that this guy can go the distance, he's got four more years and him, that he has the stamina to do it. this is the perfect opportunity because it will help so many people watching and they then can have people go two weeks after this, then they watch trump get sentenced, they watch them go to his convention. it is a good idea for biden to be seen as stable, confident, strong, and capable right now. >> what you thing about that? >> yes. remember, it was joe biden who

picked the time and place. he was the one that started it, and he accepted this debate before donald trump did. so, clearly, the biden campaign at that point, if you recall, back when this move was made, there was still a lot of question out there among voters that you need to reach eventually about who the nominees would be. you can do men in the street everywhere and they go, it will not be biden and trump. who is it going to be? so the biden campaign needed you to know, it will be biden and trump. that was the central mission of that tactical move. we've got to get them to know as soon as possible, it will be biden and trump. we cannot wait for conventions. >> i know this is a marginal issue, but to have all of the trump donors pouring money on robert f kennedy junior, as if to keep the question alive as to who the viable candidates are, his not making this debate tonight after having trump donors investing literally tens

of millions of dollars in him to try to get him up there, to try to monday those waters and prevent a dyadic choice between these two, i think it underscores the importance of that. line, is that it is a binary choice. they really want people to get their minds around the fact that it is sadler and waldorf, and there really isn't any other muppet. >> [ laughter ]. >> i like jake's temper very much. i would not wish this job on my worst enemy. in normal circ*mstances. in these circ*mstances, where there is so much focus on the uniqueness of this debate, the way that it came out, the way that it is happening, the incredibly different rules, which very well may be under the literal control with them pushing buttons to turn microphones on and off, it was impossible before the entire donald trump campaign.

they decided to start treating them as pinata's before the debate even started. >> it is the sheer difficulty of choosing. i'm always looking at the candidates from the first bill. everything is a priority. you have 90 minutes. you have a certain amount of questions. some things are important. there is a limited amount of time. there are a lot of issues in s the country. that is true of any debate in the country. it is particularly high stakes here. two, 90 minute debates. particularly with donald trump, there are a lot of questions that are pretty important to try to get on the record. >> this is going to be from the debate, going much more simple. i suspect they won't choose this. this is how much they know. this is the filming of the question.

excellent first question. what is a tariff? >> i completely agree. >> i have another question for all of them. what is the difference between medicare and medicaid? donald trump, would be stumped. if you follow that up with w which one of them pays for nursing homes, he's not going in to get it right. you can just go on and on. what does social security do? that is your whole question. you would see the craziest stuff happen. >> i nominate lauren. >> [ laughter ]. >> this has always been my fantasy about the best way to interview a candidate who lives on luster, rather than on knowledge. they can probably luster their way through almost anything stylistically. if the microphones are off, and it is a one on one question and you can't go out of it, is a nuclear submarine a submarine with nuclear weapons? is there something else nuclear

happening? those are basic questions that i think would probably be the -- >> they cannot gallop out of them. what i hope they don't ask, my least favorite question, will you accept the results? they are going to ask standard questions. i feel like donald trump, he is going to be asked to similar things that he has been asked before that he might be prepared for. something factual. he doesn't know anything about government. >> i'm also really curious. he will show sometimes, donald trump, instincts, that are smart about politics. particularly instincts for the middle. i am very curious how much he is attempting to showcase -- g >> what do you mean instincts for the middle? >> the overturning of roe v. wade is bad for the republican party. it hung around as that because he did it. the smart, political thing to do, would be to attack towards the middle line of abortions.

i think he is smart enough to understand. it doesn't mean anything you actually do with the judges, or what bills he would sign. there are other places that he can do that in immigration. he can do that in climate. there are places where he is smart enough maybe to understand that it would look better for him, to attack the middle. this is what mitt romney did in the first debate in 2012 that really knocked rock obama back. he really take part in the middle. every time that he was confronting something, we don't want to cut taxes for the rich. there is a very intentional attempt to get to the middle, and get away from the least popular parts of policy. you're just there for 90 minutes. you have the audience of 60 million people, you can say whatever you want. that is what we are going to do. >> i think the problem with that, donald trump, will still be donald trump.

i think he is more capable in 2024 this year. this is why fox isn't carrying it more. doing it totally. he used to do this with chris mathis all the time. even if he sounds like a non- lunatic, is that a word? you could prosecute him. he is still, for really extreme stuff. tonight, there is a possibility that he sounds less crazy. the stuff he is for now is so far out of the mainstream of republican thought related to r the -- >> did he know it was a nonmainstream thing? this was a nonmainstream sounding thing that women should be punished for having abortions? he didn't know that. once he realized that was a bad thing to say, he withdrew it. >> he's also a pleaser. he's trying. this is his big television moment. he wants to please the people who like him. the people who like him like extreme things. >> but they are not going to be

in the room clapping for him. >> right. >> he is smart enough that he doesn't want to lose them. t he is going to try not to say things that make them not like him anymore. i don't know if he -- the politic answer is one thing, but the answer that will please his fans is the other. i don't know how well his mind works. >> he is also incredibly adept. the thing that he is very adept at is not taking a position. we are here now, it has been however many months since october 7th, and the grinding war that came out of that in gaza. if you say this is a major campaign issue, with two candidates, what is the donald trump campaign issue on the war in gaza? there is no answer. there is nothing. i kind of know what would be going on if donald trump would be president. full support for the israeli government no strings attached. >> the only thing that he has said is that a fundraiser would crush the protest, and deport any students who protested in

favor of palestine. that is what we know he would do. that is not going to make a difference in the war. >> this is something to be smart about. he has not taken a position, and they have unburdened themselves with the expectation of taking it. there is no campaign website that you go to. there would have been in any other campaign. donald trump, on the issues. they pull it down and they have some statement on what the issue is. >> the answer is, it would have never happened. >> went with the republican party decided in 2020 that there would no longer be a platform? it would just be whatever donald trump is for. that's when they are transitioning to a different kind of political action. if you are not for anything except what the leader wants, then you are not offering people a choice that is about governing. you are just offering people the lead principal. that sounds better in the original. >> he didn't say anything.

>> absolutely. one of the things that donald trump has been saying about ha president joe biden, in the lead up to tonight debate, they keep saying that over and over again. president joe biden, just tweeted that i don't know what they have got in these av performance enhancers, but i am feeling ready jacked up. try it yourselves, folks. see you in a bit. >> get real. we will see. it is ridiculous, but it will absolutely become an article of faith among the donald trump faithful and the republican party faithful. there is some documented proof that president joe biden is on drugs. they take these things off as the craziest thing imaginable, and it becomes the article. >> my heartache is that if there is a drug for making you better at debating for president, you should take it. n what are we doing here? is that against the rules? >> [ laughter ].

>> this is going to be 90 minutes. the bricks that they are getting, there are two commercial breaks. what is going to happen during those, i think we will get to pop up for a quick second, not do any analysis. there is going to be commercials on our error as well. there has been confusion as to whether you have to watch this debate on cnn. you do not. you can watch it right here with us. you can see the room clearing out in atlanta as this starts. this is getting closer to the beginning. this is the first of two debates. there will be another one in september, depending on how tonight goes, and if these guys decide they are going to show up for a second one. you could have gotten even money up to today as to whether donald trump was going to show up for this debate read as we head into 9:00 eastern, both men are there, and it is happening. 9:00 eastern right now, means that the first presidential debate of 2024 is about

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MSNBC previews the first Presidential Debate between President Biden and former President Trump.

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